Semi-Final draw
www.commandsandcolors.net/ancients/artic...022-semi-finals.html

Cap vs Kartigan
GAME 2

Cap (Rome)               8
Kartigan (Carthage)  3

This is another extremely аsymmetrical scenario in which a well packed and concentrated heavy Roman army faces a scattered and lighter Carthaginian troops, ready to be defeated in detail. Even my magician skills couldn't help me avoid the defeat.
My starting hand (Move-fire-move; Darken the sky; Line command) allowed me to use one of Napoleon's trademarks: establish a Grand battery in the centre to prepare the camps for a melee assault (Move-fire-move + Darken the sky) while having a Plan B - extract the lights behind the medium and heavies (with Line command), once Kartigan decides to charge them in melee. After turn 2, the two Carthaginian auxilias, occupying the hills were shot where they stood. Kartigan decided to ignore rolled flags, not retreating and instead bringing his other light troops in range to counter the Roman Grand battery. After the hills were vacated, he exploded with a mass cavalry charge with two light cav, one med cav, and the elephants. The mounted passed the hills and charged straight into the Roman lights. The result was two Roman auxilias smashed, two Roman lights and two Roman mediums heavily damaged (the elephants were devastating) with all mounted Carthaginians forced into a retreat by battle back. I immediately executed Plan B and pulled back the shattered lights, replacing them with medium and heavy troops, leaving only the full health light unit to finish off the retired elephants on the hill. The result was now just 3 to 2 for the Romans, but the Carthaginian position was grim - even more scattered army with weakened centre, facing the incoming Roman concentrated juggernaut, and with no prospects of a viable counterattack. It took me 3 turns to bust-open all three camps, collecting the necessary amount of victory banners.

NOTE: This battle produced some rules discussions as well. How many dice should one roll while a medium infantry is battling out of a camp and uphill at the same time? We decided that it should still be two dice (starting 4, minus 1 for battling out of the camp, equals 3, but uphill means max 2 dice (without card modifiers)). The hesitation was for max 2 dice uphill and minus 1 for battling out of camp, equals 1 die. If anyone has an insight, please share it with us!

Big thanks to Kartigan for his time schedule flexibility. And "Bravo!" for stopping my battle-winning spree by beating me in our first game of the quarter-finals. 

 

 

Marco - Romans 8 - 29 blocks
Mark McG - Carthaginians 6 - 26 blocks

Play started on the left and center, with the Romans advancing troops while the Carths showered missile fire. Both sides developed their flanks, and then a Roman MFM lead to a lucky 2 block hit on the Carths HI on the right. This was to prove consequential later. The Romans attacked the left side of the Carth center, gaining a hill but at heavy cost. The Carths then brought their E into play, running over a hill to eliminate two MIs. Hasdrubal himself brought his HI out of the camp to take out a Roman AUX, but was then repulsed and heavily damaged by a MI. The Romans responded with HI and MI, but failed to eliminate the E, which rampaged, trampled units on both sides, and then killed the Roman HI on the battle back. The score was now 4-0 and the Carths were looking good, but the Romans continued their assault. They killed the Carthaginians HI, Hasdrubal, and took the camp, bringing the score to 4-3. Lucky LDR LC1 roll! Again the Carths advanced their E to attack a back row MC, which barely survived. Finally a MED Troops command by the Romans eliminated the E and an AUX, but cost them a MI. Score was now 5-5. The Carths then attacked from the left, bringing in a MC to finish off a one block MI, but a First Strike and a lucky three hit roll thwarted their plans. The Carths finished off the MI with a LDR mounted LC, but this turn proved to be a game changing moment, bringing the score to 6-6 and swinging the momentum to the Romans. Another turn with no effect on either side, and then the Romans used a MED Troop command to kill an AUX on a hill and finish off the remaining HI (which had been damaged by archers during the opening moves) with a desperate MC attack. Great game with really fun Elephant attacking, rampaging, and trampling. Thanks Mark McG!

Marco - Carthaginians 8 - 22 blocks
Mark McG - Romans 4 - 35 blocks

The Romans began with a strong MED Troops command, advancing not only MI but also taking up an aggressive position with their MC on the right. Unfortunately this allowed the Carths to Double Time their right wing into play, advancing their all important WARS three hexes. Both MCs took a hit as they evaded. Both sides then commenced multiple turn back and forth missile fire, with no effect whatsoever, until a final double green hit on a Carth AUX in the center. Clearly the archers had all stayed up late the night before. A fantastic 5/5 Sparticus command by the Romans allowed them to advance MI against the Carth HI on the right camp, heavily damaging it but costing them one MI. A Carth Line Command brought many units out from the center and right flank into play, taking another Roman MI. A second Roman MED Troops command brought MI and MCs on the right into action, gaining an AUX banner but losing a MC. The score was now 3-1 Carths, with the Roman right scattered and G. Scipio on a one block LI on the back row. Precarious positions indeed for the Romans, but the Carths were mostly out of range. Mostly but not entirely, because the one block WAR could still reach. The Carths used a LDR Any command to boldly run the WAR forward, taking out another MI but then falling to a beautifully timed First Strike, taking the score to 4-2 Carths. Hats off to Mark McG for his restraint in holding the FS until that critical moment; he could have used it before. More action on the right brought a banner to each side, and the score to 5-3. With numerous heavily damaged units, the Carths played the Rally which they had been dealt, and rolled an amazing 5/5. This rallied and activated the Carth MI and HI, which gained them two more banners and evaded the Roman no-name LDR off the field. At 7-3 Carths this ended the match, but the intrepid commanders agreed to finish the game anyway. The Romans Double Timed from the center and left to take a camp, but gained no other banners. The Carths finally brought their MI/LDR forward on the right to finish off the one block LI and end the game. 


 

 

Ah yes, thanks. Pays to read the whole rulebook Yes, that would have been updated since his ruling....possibly in response to the question raised at the time.

Each is certainly free to play their own way but not in a tournament setting. When that comes up again (the next blue moon) we now know.

Brent.

I think it is crystal clear from the RAW on page 15 what is supposed to happen.  This is a direct quote from the rulebook:

PLAY NOTE: Since scenarios end the instant the final Victory Banner is gained, a situation when an Elephant rampages or retreats could set up a victory dilemma, because it is possible that units from both sides are eliminated during a Rampage or an elephant retreat. The order of elephant rampage rolls is determined by the player that caused the Rampage. Resolve the Rampage die rolls, and award any Victory Banners one at a time for units eliminated by the Rampage. Using this procedure, a Rampage cannot cause a draw. When an elephant’s retreat path is blocked by units from both sides, remove all retreat losses at the same time and award any Banners which may occur as a result of the losses. If both sides gain a final Victory Banner as a result of these loses, the battle ends in a draw.

I don't know this, but my assumption is that the rulebook was updated sometime between now and 2008 or whenever it was that RB gave that answer in the BGG thread.  I would just stick to the rulebook, but each is of course free to play their own way.

I'm not sure that it is clear from the RAW on page 15 of the 3rd Ed rulebook.


"An elephant, when it retreats, goes on a Rampage before it is moved back. All units and any leaders who are alone in adjacent hexes (friend and foe) must check to see if they are trampled. (This can include the attacker who prompted the Rampage!) Roll two dice for each adjacent hex with a unit or a lone leader. During a rampage, your opponent rolls for hits on your units, and you roll for hits on his units. A hit is scored when the symbol rolled matches the unit type. A leader helmet will eliminate a lone leader. If the leader is not hit on the rampage roll he must evade. All other symbols are ignored."

Obviously you have to roll separately and consecutively, but the rules here say nothing about the outcomes occurring sequentially. I think if RB has clarified that it's simultaneous then that's the precedent.....which I'll remember to apply in another 15 years when this happens again

Brent.

A very fun and unusual result.

For those curious, Borg's comments actually contradict the rulebook (page 15), which plainly states that the player that triggered the Elephant's Rampage determines the order in which Rampage Rolls are made and that VBs are awarded as they happen, so the player who caused the Rampage would win (because they would make their opponent make rampage checks first).

This can also matter in other situations, for example determining if leaders have retreat paths available if their unit is eliminated.

The only way Elephants can cause a tie is if their retreat path is blocked by units from each side. In this case the Elephants inflict hits on both units simultaneously, and this could cause a draw.

BrentS wrote:

No effect on this pair of battles but I was curious. Rare to find an unanswered question after all these years. This is an old ruling from RB cross-quoted from CSW. Rampaging rolls are simultaneous, so it is possible to have a drawn battle (I guess in tournament circumstances we could always split it on block count if necessary). I've never come across this situation before and from RB's response it seems he never had either. 

boardgamegeek.com/thread/313453/article/2367032#2367032

Brent.

I've recorded it as 8-8. and the pair of matches has a score of 16-12, giving Brent the win for the Quarter Final.

an unusual result..

These were two very enjoyable and very different games. The second one will most probably stay as most hilarious of all my ~600 CCA plays so far - and my first draw!

Thanks to Brent for flexibility in arranging the games!

No effect on this pair of battles but I was curious. Rare to find an unanswered question after all these years. This is an old ruling from RB cross-quoted from CSW. Rampaging rolls are simultaneous, so it is possible to have a drawn battle (I guess in tournament circumstances we could always split it on block count if necessary). I've never come across this situation before and from RB's response it seems he never had either. 

boardgamegeek.com/thread/313453/article/2367032#2367032

Brent.

OT QF:ILITURGI 215 BC

Game 2

BrentS (Carthage) 8 banners

mk20366 (Rome) 8 banners

A very different battle to the first. We each had limited time before work and thought it would take a couple of sessions to play. It was over in 40 minutes. 

Rome went full frontal, with a first up Line Command and then Centre Leadership to go straight for the fragile Carthaginian centre. This was a potentially winning play as Carthage had very few centre cards….but just enough in the end. Almost no ranged attacks and almost no flank action except for the Carthaginians to get Mago in on his Light Cav and a couple of additional lights for flank support. 

Close, bloody and brutal. A Carthaginian Clash of Shields and a 4 dice single kill on a battle back helped the Carthaginian cause. With the Carthaginian centre shattered and camps exposed the Romans used a MFM to occupy the camps and bring the banner count to 7 apiece. Lots of vulnerable 1 block units everywhere on both sides so time for Carthage to send in the Elephant. Rampaged and killed a 1 block Carthaginian Heavy and a 1 block Roman Medium….we couldn’t remember what the rules for this were (simultaneous or sequential at the rampager’s choice) but as it didn’t decide the overall outcome we decided to call it a draw! 

Well played, Michal. Always tight, enjoyable games and I think this was decided by my lucky ranged dice in the first game. Interesting that we had no leader deaths in either match…..an unusual but welcome outcome. 

This is an uncomfortable scenario, in a good way. A couple of potential tactical approaches for Rome, depending on their cards, and a tense race for Carthage to get her support in from the flanks. Good choice again, Mark.

Brent.

Kartigan (Romans) 8 Banners, 26 Blocks Lost
Cap       (Carthaginian) 7 Banners, 26 Blocks Lost


It is very difficult for a game to get any closer than this one, with a very narrow 8 to 7 victory for the Romans and each side losing exactly 26 blocks.  

The Romans surged forward quickly with a Line Command and drove into the Center camps immediately, capturing the middle camp relatively soon.  Hannibal brought forces to bear on the Roman right, and the Romans counterattacked managing to eliminate the Carthaginian Left and secure the second camp.  In all of this merely an exchange of banners was accomplished, with the score remaining close on both sides.

As the banner count climbed, the Romans repulsed an Auxilia attack on the central hill they were holding, but the Roman Mediums defending it were eliminated by missile fire, making the score 7 to 6 in favor of Carthage.  On the Romans final turn, they managed to go 2 out of 4 on the wounded Auxilia for their 7th banner, and Scipio threw caution to the wind, charging forward and managing to go 2/4 on the Elephants for the 8th banner.  Had Scipio's attack on the Elehpants failed, Carthage would've very likely won the very next turn.

All in all this was a very entertaining game, with a lot of back and forth, wild highs and lows, and surprise moments.  I think the luck was fairly even for most of the battle, until the end when I managed to have the hot dice and score the back to back banners on the final turn.  Cap put up a remarkable fight, defending very well in what I think are clearly the underdogs in this scenario.  

I definitely will have my work cut out for me to try and beat his score of 7 as Carthage.

OT QF: ILITURGI 215 BC

Game 1

BrentS (Rome) Banners 8 (Blocks lost 20)

mk 20366 (Carthage) Banners 4 (Blocks lost 33)

Michal pointed out that we’d played this scenario in a tournament years ago and that the result was a tense one banner battle. I don’t remember that game but the scenario was familiar and this game was just as intense. It’s definitely a scenario of painful attrition. 

We played old school with text only as it was late at Michal’s end, so the whole thing is there in the log. 

The Romans arranged their firing line in front of the Carthaginian centre while Carthage did what they needed to do and started to pull their flanks in to support. A plethora of Line Commands and Counterattacked Line Commands saw a lot of fire and rearranging of lines but I chose not to advance into the killing zone at the foot of the Carthaginian hills and camps (it may be the right thing to do in some cases, but not with the flow of the game and the cards I held). Rome pushed forward on both flanks to try to disrupt the Carthaginian ranged attacks and their attempt to consolidate their army, with some temporary success but were repulsed. 

After initially failing every ranged attack the Romans started scoring double colours on multiple shots as they got their sighting in and made an early foray with one supported Medium infantry against the leftmost camp (from the Carthaginian perspective). The Carthaginians diverted the Roman attention from the central assault with an infantry advance on their left, trading a Roman Auxilia and Carthaginian Warrior. The Carthaginians used the breathing space well to reorganise their centre defense and withdraw a couple of 1 block units but were left with no firepower there against a whole line of Roman lights. That was always going to hurt, as the Romans settled in to to pepper the defenseless Carthaginians with volley after embarrassingly accurate volley. 

The Carthaginians again diverted by Double Timing against the Roman left, again exchanging units, and driving P. Scipio back but he was able to consolidate his lines and the advance Carthaginian right was exposed, couldn’t press its assault and was forced to withdraw. 

This time the Carthaginians didn’t have enough in reserve to salvage the centre and C. Scipio charged on a Heavy, knocked out Hannibal’s depleted Medium and advanced to take the left Carthaginian camp and kill a 1 block Heavy positioned behind it for 3 banners on one play. This was the turning point of the battle. Desperation followed as the valiant Carthaginians attempted a Clash of Shields from the hills with a Cavalry and Light Infantry against a full strength Roman Heavy but couldn’t quite finish it. It Rallied and together with a flanking Cav cut off and eliminated a Carthaginian Light Cav to come within one banner of victory. 

The Carthaginains played a Hail Mary and finally sent the elephant against G. Scipio’s Heavy, forcing it to retreat. It came back with a Line Command and only forced the elephant to rampage and retreat but finished it by killing Mago’s Auxilia on the Carthaginian right. 

An enjoyable battle between opponents who know each other’s game too well for surprises, making it very tense. I’d like to applaud Michal for the sportsmanship he showed in letting me play the final flank attack on the left when I’d accidentally ended the turn early. We were both tired and I know he wouldn't want to win by a non-tactical error, but it was a noble gesture all the same. I wouldn’t have expected anything less, or the same of myself in return, but it’s emblematic of his sportsmanship, as it is of C& C players in general. 

Looking forward to part 2, when I fully expect Michal to come back with a vengeance.

Brent.

(Consolidating my report with Gonzo's report from Game 1)

Game 1

Gonzo (Carthage) 8 Banners, 24 Blocks Lost

Travis (Rome) 7 Banners, 31 Blocks Lost

Romans start strong with 2 line commands and a 4 hit roll on a HI in a camp. Carthage with nothing in middle, shifts Cav to right wing and charges. Back and forth it went on that flank until Cath HI able to step out and get final banner. Very close very fun game, well played by Travis.

Game 2

Gonzo (Rome)  4 Banners, 36 Blocks Lost

Travis (Carthage)  8 Banners, 16 Blocks Lost

Seemingly much closer and potentially dire for the Carthaginians than the score would appear.  Romans started out strong in this game, moving quickly on the center and jumping out to a 2-1 lead, trading a MI for a HI and banner for capturing the camp. As the Carthaginians desperately attempted to move their wings towards the center, ranged attacks evened the score at 2-2. 

The Romans then moved on the Carthage right, and Hasdrubal the Dull-Bladed moved on the Roman center, with poor results. Despite using a FS card as well as a very effective Rally card, Hasdrubal met his end after several poor rolls, and things looked bleak for the beleaguered North Africans. Mago stepped into the breach to eliminate two Roman units for a 4-3 lead, but the Carth HI was quickly eliminated after this suicide mission and things were even at 4.  After the Romans pressed the Carthage right again and a MFM play, the game would be decided by consecutive MC cards.  

First, the Romans played theirs to push back advance units on the right, but in the process left an opening that Carthaginian mounted units were able to exploit for the win. Surrounding and eliminating the cavalry first, then moving on weakened infantry, Carthage eliminated four Roman units with very lucky rolls for the win. 

Log file would be appreciated.

Gonzo (Carthage) 8 Banners, 24 Blocks Lost

Travis (Rome) 7 Banners, 31 Blocks Lost

Romans start strong with 2 line commands and a 4 hit roll on a HI in a camp. Carthage with nothing in middle, shifts Cav to right wing and charges. Back and forth it went on that flank until Cath HI able to step out and get final banner. Very close very fun game, well played by Travis.

added a deadline..4th Sept